From verm at tendra.org Tue Nov 12 07:29:22 2002 From: verm at tendra.org (Amar Takhar) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:29:22 -0800 Subject: Anyone out there? Message-ID: <20021112062922.GA69970@tendra.org> Just a quick check to see if we have any dsssl / sgml people in the audiance? :) Infact, anyone who's willing to helpout with the documentation would be fantastic, there are quite a few things that need to be done, new docs, and working with the old documentation. So if anyone is out there, speak up! :) Amar. From asmodai at wxs.nl Tue Nov 12 07:50:53 2002 From: asmodai at wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 07:50:53 +0100 Subject: Anyone out there? In-Reply-To: <20021112062922.GA69970@tendra.org> References: <20021112062922.GA69970@tendra.org> Message-ID: <20021112065053.GR2645@nexus.ninth-circle.org> -On [20021112 07:48], Amar Takhar (verm at tendra.org) wrote: >Just a quick check to see if we have any dsssl / sgml people in the >audiance? :) You know I also meddle with this stuff. :) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / asmodai / Kita no Mono Ninth Circle Enterprises | WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.tendra.org/ | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ The Eyes of Truth are always watching you... From ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de Tue Nov 12 08:50:04 2002 From: ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christian Cornelssen) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:50:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: Anyone out there? In-Reply-To: <20021112062922.GA69970@tendra.org> Message-ID: Hello, On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Amar Takhar wrote: > Just a quick check to see if we have any dsssl / sgml people in the > audiance? :) I have spent some months experimenting with DocBook XML v4.2CR1 and the various SGML tools. I have tried Jade/Openjade + Jadetex and some XSLT processors combined with fotex/passivetex. Being used to the quality achievable with LaTeX, the results appeared of course somewhat discouraging to me. But the most significant technical annoyance was that these approaches tend to produce almost unlimited input lines for TeXs limited input line buffer. Try to process The Definitive Guide for example :-( This can be major handicap for people who cannot gain the privileges to change teTeX's `texmf.cnf'. If you use only a small subset of DocBook features (which is common), you might want to try David Carlisle's "xmltex" package and provide the corresponding LaTeX constructs by hand. Thus you have full access to all LaTeX features and can tweak the typesetting to the desired appearance and quality. Furthermore, you don't need any other tools besides TeX/LaTeX for that, and there are no input line buffer overflows, because TeX processes the XML sources directly. This would be ideal for other "make" users out there. Links: http://www.dcarlisle.demon.co.uk/xmltex/manual.html http://www.gutenberg.eu.org/pub/GUTenberg/publicationsPDF/35-carlisle.pdf Regards, Christian Cornelssen From verm at tendra.org Tue Nov 12 09:24:17 2002 From: verm at tendra.org (Amar Takhar) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:24:17 -0800 Subject: Anyone out there? In-Reply-To: <20021112065053.GR2645@nexus.ninth-circle.org> References: <20021112062922.GA69970@tendra.org> <20021112065053.GR2645@nexus.ninth-circle.org> Message-ID: <20021112082417.GA70915@tendra.org> On 2002-11-12 07:50 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > > You know I also meddle with this stuff. :) I'll have to remember that ;) Amar. From verm at tendra.org Tue Nov 12 09:28:33 2002 From: verm at tendra.org (Amar Takhar) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:28:33 -0800 Subject: Anyone out there? In-Reply-To: References: <20021112062922.GA69970@tendra.org> Message-ID: <20021112082833.GB70915@tendra.org> On 2002-11-12 08:50 +0100, Christian Cornelssen wrote: > > I have spent some months experimenting with DocBook XML v4.2CR1 and > the various SGML tools. I have tried Jade/Openjade + Jadetex and some > XSLT processors combined with fotex/passivetex. Being used to the > quality achievable with LaTeX, the results appeared of course somewhat > discouraging to me. Well, the results in our PDF's for example speak for themselves, i think, we're using dsssl (nwalsh's stylesheets) / openjade / pdftex. > But the most significant technical annoyance was that these approaches > tend to produce almost unlimited input lines for TeXs limited input > line buffer. Try to process The Definitive Guide for example :-( > This can be major handicap for people who cannot gain the privileges > to change teTeX's `texmf.cnf'. Well, a bit of local config twiddling can easily fix that :). Most of the time it's a misplaced { or } that is making tex suckup its resources. > If you use only a small subset of DocBook features (which is common), > you might want to try David Carlisle's "xmltex" package and provide > the corresponding LaTeX constructs by hand. Thus you have full access > to all LaTeX features and can tweak the typesetting to the desired > appearance and quality. Furthermore, you don't need any other tools > besides TeX/LaTeX for that, and there are no input line buffer > overflows, because TeX processes the XML sources directly. This would > be ideal for other "make" users out there. Well, we've already got an excellent system (borrowed in part from the FreeBSD doc proj.). I'm not concerned with the make compatability, if someone wants to helpout with the docs, they'll get the proper packages installed in order to do it. In *any* situation it is impossible to please everyone. I'm far more comfortable sticking with the good ol tried-n-true method :) Amar. From ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de Tue Nov 12 10:46:34 2002 From: ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christian Cornelssen) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:46:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: Anyone out there? In-Reply-To: <20021112082833.GB70915@tendra.org> Message-ID: Hello, On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Amar Takhar wrote: > On 2002-11-12 08:50 +0100, Christian Cornelssen wrote: > > > > I have spent some months experimenting with DocBook XML v4.2CR1 and > > the various SGML tools. I have tried Jade/Openjade + Jadetex and some > > XSLT processors combined with fotex/passivetex. Being used to the > > quality achievable with LaTeX, the results appeared of course somewhat > > discouraging to me. > > Well, the results in our PDF's for example speak for themselves, i think, we're > using dsssl (nwalsh's stylesheets) / openjade / pdftex. Looks like that. N. Walsh's DocBook DSSSL stylesheets have spacing problems. Anyway, they are the best free stylesheets available for print formatting, so I'll stop criticizing :-) More concretely, which doc tasks would you like to schedule? Regards, Christian Cornelssen From ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de Wed Nov 13 10:06:40 2002 From: ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christian Cornelssen) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:06:40 +0100 (CET) Subject: Anyone out there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, sorry for my ungracious comment on the PDFs, of course I appreciate the work though :-) I'll re-install Jade and the DSSSL stuff and try to process the TenDRA docs. Regards, Christian Cornelssen From asmodai at wxs.nl Wed Nov 13 11:05:41 2002 From: asmodai at wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:05:41 +0100 Subject: Anyone out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021113100541.GC8580@nexus.ninth-circle.org> -On [20021113 10:11], Christian Cornelssen (ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de) wrote: >sorry for my ungracious comment on the PDFs, of course I appreciate >the work though :-) Oh, don't worry. You'll find that the bunch of us are very hard to anger at all. We've been through a lot of projects already, and although we might discuss things sometimes strongly it is merely because we like to hash out all the pros and cons of an issue. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / asmodai / Kita no Mono Ninth Circle Enterprises | WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.tendra.org/ | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. - Chinese Proverb From ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de Wed Nov 13 11:25:10 2002 From: ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christian Cornelssen) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:25:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: Anyone out there? In-Reply-To: <20021113100541.GC8580@nexus.ninth-circle.org> Message-ID: Hello, On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > Oh, don't worry. You'll find that the bunch of us are very hard to > anger at all. We've been through a lot of projects already, and > although we might discuss things sometimes strongly it is merely because > we like to hash out all the pros and cons of an issue. Fine :-) It was just that Amar fell into sudden silence... (And I know that authoring in SGML, and XML in particular, can be quite exhausting, and I wouldn't want such work to be dishonored.) After all, you'd like to have some things done, and I'd like to know which ones. I think that's what this thread is about. Regards, Christian Cornelssen From asmodai at wxs.nl Wed Nov 13 13:27:48 2002 From: asmodai at wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:27:48 +0100 Subject: Anyone out there? In-Reply-To: References: <20021113100541.GC8580@nexus.ninth-circle.org> Message-ID: <20021113122748.GD8580@nexus.ninth-circle.org> -On [20021113 13:06], Christian Cornelssen (ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de) wrote: >Fine :-) It was just that Amar fell into sudden silence... Nah, he just has weird habits of when he's awake and such. :) >After all, you'd like to have some things done, and I'd like to know >which ones. I think that's what this thread is about. See: http://www.tendra.org/tasks/ for a list of stuff we still need to do... -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / asmodai / Kita no Mono Ninth Circle Enterprises | WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.tendra.org/ | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ Hope and fear cannot alter the seasons... From verm at tendra.org Wed Nov 13 15:08:24 2002 From: verm at tendra.org (Amar Takhar) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 06:08:24 -0800 Subject: Anyone out there? In-Reply-To: References: <20021113100541.GC8580@nexus.ninth-circle.org> Message-ID: <20021113140824.GB87357@tendra.org> On 2002-11-13 11:25 +0100, Christian Cornelssen wrote: > Hello, > > On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > > > Oh, don't worry. You'll find that the bunch of us are very hard to > > anger at all. We've been through a lot of projects already, and > > although we might discuss things sometimes strongly it is merely because > > we like to hash out all the pros and cons of an issue. > > Fine :-) It was just that Amar fell into sudden silence... > (And I know that authoring in SGML, and XML in particular, can be > quite exhausting, and I wouldn't want such work to be dishonored.) OH, no worries :) you were just getting your 2 cents in, and as Jeroen wrote we like to discuss things, the world strongly is a great word, you should see us when we really get going. Of course none of it is taken to heart, we all can be very opinionated at times, and dammit, i'm always right! :) > After all, you'd like to have some things done, and I'd like to know > which ones. I think that's what this thread is about. Well, our goal is to be *well* documented, there are some documents that need writing which i will add to the task list at some point. The biggest one (i think) for the moment is to get a nice FAQ going. As soon as the new build system can install TenDRA i'm going to be working on a comprehensive INSTALL document for every OS that TenDRA installs on. Amar. From ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de Fri Nov 15 06:07:20 2002 From: ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christian Cornelssen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 06:07:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: doc/en/faq Makefile patches Message-ID: Hello, I have tried to get the FAQ in doc/en/faq checked ("pmake lint") and converted to HTML ("pmake"), using several different setups: one for Jade (default), one for OpenJade (OPENJADE=yes), and two for xsltproc (STYLESHEET_TYPE=xsl), being fed with the output of the *sx converter of Jade or OpenJade. Apart from doing lots of variable settings in the "pmake" command line (my installation is different from Amar's), I had to tweak TenDRA's files a little. See the attached diff for details. * doc/share/mk/doc.docbook.mk: - For some unknown reason, my pmake always had OPENJADE defined(), therefore I had to turn the defined() test into a string match. If you cannot reproduce that, simply discard the diff's first hunk. - DOCBOOKCATALOG must always point to the DocBook SGML catalog, regardless of STYLESHEET_TYPE. This is because in both cases an SGML tool is used for parsing the source (either *jade or *sx). - The interpolation of "-c"s into the CATALOGS argument list happens later than before. This allows the user to simply clear individual *CATALOG variables if the SGML tools need not be told about them (e.g. because the user has defined a suitable SGML_CATALOG_FILES variable in the environment). - if CANONICALOBJDIR is unset, no -D option will be given to the SGML tools any more. Otherwise wrong command lines would result. - An ${SX} command has been rewritten. It uses ${CATALOGS} now, and its error output is filtered with a pipe instead of being dumped into a temporary file and being postprocessed from there. Furthermore, the SYSTEM specifier of the resulting XML DOCTYPE is now configurable with DOCBOOKX_DTD. * doc/share/xsl/freebsd.xsl: - Indeed! I had to change the system specifier. It's now a valid http:, and my system XML catalogs, as set up automatically by Daniel Veillard's famous "buildDocBookCatalog" script, happily translate that into the filename of my local copy. This is a portable, effective, representative example of how catalogs should work. Additional notes (without patch): * doc/share/mk/doc.docbook.mk: - The files specified in the XSLHTML* variables did not exist. I used XSLHTML=${DOC_PREFIX}/share/xsl/freebsd.xsl instead, but perhaps you want to add the missing files. - My ${TIDY} didn't understand the "-preserve" option in ${TIDYOPTS}. Did you mean "--preserve"? Regards, Christian Cornelssen -------------- next part -------------- --- ./doc/share/mk/doc.docbook.mk.orig Wed Nov 13 09:57:37 2002 +++ ./doc/share/mk/doc.docbook.mk Fri Nov 15 04:38:35 2002 @@ -12,7 +12,7 @@ OPENJADE= yes .endif -.if defined(OPENJADE) +.if ${OPENJADE} == "yes" JADE?= ${PREFIX}/bin/openjade JADECATALOG?= ${PREFIX}/share/sgml/openjade/catalog NSGMLS?= ${PREFIX}/bin/onsgmls @@ -32,12 +32,9 @@ LANGUAGECATALOG=${DOC_PREFIX}/${LANGCODE}/share/sgml/catalog ISO8879CATALOG= ${PREFIX}/share/sgml/iso8879/catalog - -.if ${STYLESHEET_TYPE} == "dsssl" DOCBOOKCATALOG= ${PREFIX}/share/sgml/docbook/catalog -.elif ${STYLESHEET_TYPE} == "xsl" -DOCBOOKCATALOG= ${PREFIX}/share/xml/docbook/catalog -.endif + +DOCBOOKX_DTD?= ${PREFIX}/share/xml/docbook/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd DSSSLCATALOG= ${PREFIX}/share/sgml/docbook/dsssl/modular/catalog COLLATEINDEX= ${PREFIX}/share/sgml/docbook/dsssl/modular/bin/collateindex.pl @@ -49,11 +46,15 @@ IMAGES_LIB?= -CATALOGS= -c ${LANGUAGECATALOG} -c ${FREEBSDCATALOG} \ - -c ${DSSSLCATALOG} -c ${ISO8879CATALOG} \ - -c ${DOCBOOKCATALOG} -c ${JADECATALOG} \ - ${EXTRA_CATALOGS:S/^/-c /g} +CATALOG_FILES= ${LANGUAGECATALOG} ${FREEBSDCATALOG} \ + ${DSSSLCATALOG} ${ISO8879CATALOG} \ + ${DOCBOOKCATALOG} ${JADECATALOG} \ + ${EXTRA_CATALOGS} +CATALOGS= ${CATALOG_FILES:S/^/-c /g} + +.if defined(CANONICALOBJDIR) SGMLFLAGS+= -D ${CANONICALOBJDIR} +.endif JADEOPTS= ${JADEFLAGS} ${SGMLFLAGS} ${CATALOGS} KNOWN_FORMATS= html html.tar html-split html-split.tar \ @@ -279,9 +280,11 @@ # Better approaches to handling this would be most welcome ${DOC}.xml: ${SRCS} - echo '' > ${DOC}.xml - ${SX} -xlower -xndata ${MASTERDOC} 2> .sxerr | tail -n +2 >> ${DOC}.xml - @-grep -v 'reference to internal SDATA entity' .sxerr + echo '' > ${DOC}.xml + if ( ${SX} ${CATALOGS} -xlower -xndata ${MASTERDOC} |\ + tail +2 >> ${DOC}.xml ) 2>&1 |\ + grep -v 'reference to internal SDATA entity' >&2;\ + then false; else true; fi # HTML-SPLIT ------------------------------------------------------------- --- ./doc/share/xsl/freebsd.xsl.orig Sun Sep 8 13:01:07 2002 +++ ./doc/share/xsl/freebsd.xsl Fri Nov 15 03:46:58 2002 @@ -8,8 +8,8 @@ exclude-result-prefixes="#default"> - - + + From verm at tendra.org Fri Nov 15 10:47:08 2002 From: verm at tendra.org (Amar Takhar) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:47:08 -0800 Subject: doc/en/faq Makefile patches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021115094708.GA5148@tendra.org> On 2002-11-15 06:07 +0100, Christian Cornelssen wrote: > Hello, > > I have tried to get the FAQ in doc/en/faq checked ("pmake lint") and > converted to HTML ("pmake"), using several different setups: one for > Jade (default), one for OpenJade (OPENJADE=yes), and two for > xsltproc (STYLESHEET_TYPE=xsl), being fed with the output of the *sx > converter of Jade or OpenJade. Excellent feedback! i will look at these as soon as i can, as i mentioned before, our doc system was basically 'borrowed' from the FreeBSD docproj, what they have gets us *most* of the way to what we need, however a lot of is currently being redone by myself so that we have a more 'slimmed' down version. The old system is heavily tied to freebsd, my intention is to make it as portible as possible the first step which i had started on was to move all of the directory/binary definitions to a common file to enable easier editing :) I will review your changes and integ as possible, hopefully by the end of the weekend i will have a more 'sane' version of the base mkfiles. > - My ${TIDY} didn't understand the "-preserve" option in ${TIDYOPTS}. > Did you mean "--preserve"? I'm currently running the '4th August 2000' version of tidy, what are you at? Amar. From ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de Fri Nov 15 11:04:21 2002 From: ccorn at cs.tu-berlin.de (Christian Cornelssen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:04:21 +0100 (CET) Subject: doc/en/faq Makefile patches In-Reply-To: <20021115094708.GA5148@tendra.org> Message-ID: Hi, On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, Amar Takhar wrote: > > - My ${TIDY} didn't understand the "-preserve" option in ${TIDYOPTS}. > > Did you mean "--preserve"? > > I'm currently running the '4th August 2000' version of tidy, what are you at? The same, it seems: chris at Dachs:~$ rpm -q tidy tidy-2000.08.04-114 Best regards, Christian Cornelssen